--- title: Was God Ever Without His Wisdom? url: https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/wisdom-and-power-of-god/ markdown: https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/wisdom-and-power-of-god.md type: argument perspective: Protestant (historic Nicene) response to Jehovah's Witness teaching topics: [Deity of Christ] challenges: [Jesus Is a Created Being, The Trinity Is a False Pagan Doctrine] verses: [1 Corinthians 1:24, Proverbs 8:22, Proverbs 8:14, Jeremiah 10:12, John 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:18, Proverbs 8:1, Job 12:13, Proverbs 3:19, 1 Corinthians 1:30, John 1:3] strength: Strong tone: Excellent attribution: Athanasius, Orations Against the Arians 1.14, 1.17, 1.19 (the Arians 'predicate of Him that He was once without His proper Word and Wisdom'); Tim Barnett, 'Does Proverbs 8:22 Teach That Jesus Was Created?' (Stand to Reason, 2015), on personification and asking 'Do you believe that Jehovah lacked wisdom?'; Nick Peters, 'The Eternal Wisdom' (Deeper Waters Apologetics, 2009), on God never being without his Wisdom; NET Bible notes on Proverbs 8:22-31 (wisdom as personified attribute); SIL Translator's Notes on Proverbs 8:24 ('brought forth' is literally 'I was born'); The Watchtower, August 1, 2006, p. 31, and Come Be My Follower ch. 13 (JW statements that God's wisdom was never produced); Elijah Johnson Apologetics and GodLogic Apologetics (doorstep exchanges on Proverbs 8:22 and 1 Corinthians 1:24) added: '2026-10-11' last_reviewed: '2026-10-11' index: https://jw-apologetics.app/llms.txt --- # Was God Ever Without His Wisdom? *1 Corinthians 1:24 — Christ is God's power and God's wisdom, so Proverbs 8 cannot make him a creature* ## Doorstep Question > "You see Jesus in Proverbs 8 because Paul calls Christ "the wisdom of God." Could we read 1 Corinthians 1:24 together? Your Bible says, "Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God." Here's my honest question: was there ever a time when Jehovah had no wisdom and no power?" ## JW Claim Proverbs 8:22 is the prehuman Jesus speaking as personified wisdom. The NWT reads, "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago." Verses 24 and 25 say twice, "I was brought forth," which shows that wisdom had a beginning. Verse 30 says he was "beside him as a master worker," which matches the Son working with Jehovah in creation. Because God's own wisdom has always existed and was never produced, the wisdom in Proverbs 8 must be a person distinct from that quality: the Son, Jehovah's first creation. 1 Corinthians 1:24 confirms that this wisdom is Jesus. Witnesses often add that "even Trinitarians disagree about whether Proverbs 8 is about Jesus," and that Proverbs 8:14 shows wisdom is a person, because wisdom says it possesses "practical wisdom," and wisdom can't possess wisdom. ## Strategy Start where the Witness starts. The bridge from Proverbs 8 to Jesus is 1 Corinthians 1:24: "Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God." Paul doesn't say Christ is wise; he says Christ is God's wisdom, paired with God's power. That is the pair Scripture uses for how God made the world: "the Maker of the earth by his power, The One who established the productive land by his wisdom" (Jeremiah 10:12). The Witness's own literature agrees with you on the key point: "Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced" (The Watchtower, August 1, 2006, p. 31). So ask gently: if God's wisdom was never produced, and Christ is "the wisdom of God," how can Christ have been produced? To keep Jesus a creature, he has to be a different "wisdom" from the one God always had, and then 1 Corinthians 1:24 no longer links him to Proverbs 8 at all. Be honest that Proverbs 8 is a poem: wisdom calls in the streets (8:1-3) and builds a house with seven pillars (9:1). Nobody should build a doctrine of Christ on one verb in a poem. Then move to plain texts such as John 1:3. ## Key Insight God has never been without his wisdom or his power. If Christ is God's wisdom and power, as Paul says, he was never created; and if he isn't, Proverbs 8 says nothing about Christ at all. ## JW Responses & Counters ### Response 1 **JW says:** "God's own wisdom was never created; we agree on that. But Proverbs 8 is about a person called 'wisdom', Jesus, who was produced. It's a name for him, not God's actual wisdom." **Counter:** Thank you, that's honest, and I'm glad we agree God's wisdom had no beginning. But notice what it gives away. Proverbs 8 is plainly about real wisdom: the wisdom kings rule by (8:15), the wisdom by which "Jehovah founded the earth" (Proverbs 3:19). If the Son is a different "wisdom" from that, the poem isn't describing him. You can't have it both ways: wisdom has to be God's real wisdom for Proverbs 8 to be about Christ, and it has to be something less for Christ to be created. Paul doesn't call Christ a creature named "wisdom"; he calls him "the power of God and the wisdom of God." Which wisdom do you think Paul meant? ### Response 2 **JW says:** "It's like naming something. This phone was created; if I name it 'Simon' and call Simon 'the wisdom', then the wisdom was created. That's all Proverbs 8 means." **Counter:** That's a clever picture, and I think it shows exactly where the problem is. If "wisdom" is only a label on a created thing, the way "Simon" is a label on your phone, then the poem isn't really about wisdom at all. But Proverbs 8 describes wisdom that gives good advice, that kings rule by, that was with God when he made the world. Shrink it to a label and Proverbs 8 stops telling us anything about Christ. And Paul didn't give Christ a label; he called him God's power and God's wisdom. Was there ever a time when Jehovah had no power? ### Response 3 **JW says:** "Proverbs 8:14 says wisdom has 'practical wisdom'. Wisdom can't possess wisdom, so this must be a person, Jesus, speaking." **Counter:** Let's read it: "I possess good advice and practical wisdom; Understanding and power are mine." That's the poem doing what poems do: personified wisdom lists its qualities. The next chapter says "true wisdom has built its house; It has carved out its seven pillars." No one thinks wisdom literally owns a seven-pillared house. And notice that 8:14 says "power" belongs to wisdom too, the same pairing as 1 Corinthians 1:24. If this speaker is the Son, he holds God's wisdom and power as his own. Does that sound like something a creature could say? ### Response 4 **JW says:** "Even Trinitarians disagree about whether Proverbs 8 is about Jesus." **Counter:** That's true, and I'm happy to admit it. Many early Christians read Proverbs 8 as a picture of Christ, and many today read it as a poem about God's wisdom that Christ fulfils. But none of them reads it as proof that the Son was created. Athanasius, who read Proverbs 8 of Christ, used this very argument against those who said the Son was made: they were saying God "was once without His proper Word and Wisdom." So the disagreement doesn't help the created-Son view. Whichever way you read the poem, 1 Corinthians 1:24 is still there. What would it mean for Jehovah to have been without his wisdom? ### Response 5 **JW says:** "Verses 24 and 25 say 'I was brought forth' twice. That means wisdom had a beginning." **Counter:** The Hebrew word behind "brought forth" is a birth word; literally it is "I was born." Your own literature explains it as "brought forth as with labor pains." It's about being born, not manufactured. That is why the church has always said the Son is "begotten, not made." A father begets a son of his own nature; a builder makes something of a different nature. So if you press the poem's verbs, the birth image points to a Son who shares the Father's nature, not to a creature. Doesn't a birth picture fit a Son better than a factory does? ### Response 6 **JW says:** "We can't explain everything. When the new world comes we'll ask Jehovah to clarify these things." **Counter:** I appreciate the honesty, and I'm looking forward to that too. Can I gently point something out? That's what I'd be told I was doing if I said it about the Trinity. Christians do say there is mystery in how God is Father, Son and Spirit, but this isn't a mystery; it's a contradiction the created-wisdom reading creates: God without his wisdom and power until he made his Son. The simplest answer isn't to wait; it's to take Paul at his word. Would it be fair to say the problem goes away if Christ is God's own wisdom, as Paul says? ### Response 7 **JW says:** "1 Corinthians 1:30 says Christ 'has become to us wisdom from God'. So 'wisdom' is a role he plays for us, not God's own wisdom." **Counter:** Verse 30 is lovely, and it's about what Christ is to us: "wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom." But verse 24 says what Christ is in relation to God: "the power of God and the wisdom of God." Both are true. And if "wisdom" is only a role he plays for believers, the link to Proverbs 8 is gone again, because Proverbs 8 is about the wisdom with God at creation, before there were any believers. Which verse do you think ties Christ to Proverbs 8, 24 or 30? ## What to Avoid Don't claim Proverbs 8 is a direct prophecy or a biography of the Son; it is wisdom poetry, and overclaiming invites a fair rebuttal. Don't turn this into a word study on the Hebrew verb in 8:22; one sentence on the birth verb in 8:24-25 is enough. Don't say the Son is merely a quality inside God; Paul's point is that the Son is everything God's wisdom is, and so shares God's eternity, while remaining a distinct person. Don't hop to Colossians, John 1 and Hebrews in one breath; stay with one question until it has been answered. Don't mock the "Simon" analogy; thank the person for trying, then show what it concedes. The Witness is not an opponent to beat but a neighbour who loves Jehovah's wisdom too; keep the question simple, repeat it kindly, and let silence do its work. ## Homework (1) Read 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 in the NWT and note that verse 24 says Christ is "the power of God and the wisdom of God," not merely wise or powerful. (2) Read Proverbs 8:1-9:6 in one sitting so you can say honestly that it is a poem (wisdom calls in the streets, builds a house with seven pillars). (3) Look up Jeremiah 10:12, Job 12:13 and Proverbs 3:19 in the NWT and notice that God's wisdom and power are always his own. (4) Find The Watchtower, August 1, 2006, p. 31 ("Questions From Readers") so you can quote fairly: "His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced." (5) Practise the doorstep question aloud until you can ask it in one breath: "If Christ is God's wisdom and power, was God ever without them?" (6) Rehearse the likeliest reply ("it's just a name for Jesus") and the answer: "Then Proverbs 8 isn't about him, is it?" ## Next Moves - [Always the Father, Always a Son](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/eternal-father-eternal-son.md) - [An Attribute Can't Become Flesh](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/logos-attribute-vs-person.md) - [Monogenes — 'Only Begotten' Means Unique](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/john3-16-monogenes.md) - [Arianism Is Not New — JW Christology Was Rejected in AD 325](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/arianism-not-new.md) - [Colossians 1 — Inserted 'Other'](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/colossians1-other.md) - [You're Not God — Why Your Model Isn't the Standard](https://jw-apologetics.app/arguments/epistemic-humility-trinity-objection.md)